Keynote – Beyond the Edge

[00:00:00] Todd Zabelle: Hello everybody, my name is Todd Zabelle and I’m very excited to introduce Hunter Newby, who’ll be providing our keynote today. Hunter’s an American entrepreneur, an investor, conservationist – I might add a conversationalist – and the owner of Newby Ventures. His primary field of interest has been network infrastructure.

[00:00:22] Todd R. Zabelle: And every year that we do these keynotes, we try to bring in something that we believe is one, forward-thinking, but yet applicable to what we do. And I think that we’ll see that through Hunter’s talk in his experience. He’s the co-founder, chief strategy officer and director of Telx. He pioneered the carrier neutral meet-me room in the development of carrier hotels and data centers in the U.S. leading to massive value creation, economic development throughout the country.

[00:00:48] Todd R. Zabelle: Since Telx was sold, he’s been, and continues to be, the founder, developer, investment creation of multiple network neutral infrastructure businesses all across North America and the world. I find that talking with Hunter is a profound experience. He’s never short of ideas and trends that he tracks.

[00:01:08] Todd R. Zabelle: And with that I’d like to hand it over to Hunter and take it from here please.

[00:01:13] Hunter Newby: Thank you. Thanks, Todd. Thanks, everybody. It’s a pleasure to be here. Not a lot of time. I put some slides together and I’m just going to jump right into it, but thanks, Todd, for the bio. Okay, so the topic, or the title, is “Beyond the Edge.”

[00:01:34] Hunter Newby: Todd asked me to speak on this – the future of the Internet and internet network infrastructure, most specifically network interconnection. So the Internet’s a pretty big thing. It’s a broad topic. I specifically focus on what’s called “network neutral infrastructure,” so not a carrier.

[00:01:55] Hunter Newby: I’m effectively in the real estate business. I came up with this concept of building an environment within a building where networks existed on different floors for them to extend their physical network presence into, for the purpose of making it more efficient for them to interconnect.

[00:02:13] Hunter Newby: I started doing that in New York City 25 years ago. I know that there’s some oil and gas people in this symposium today. So if you’re familiar with Henry Hub, I studied that for natural gas and looked at creating that in this world. So, define the Internet. Internet protocol and the Internet are not the same.

[00:02:35] Hunter Newby: So here’s just a couple things you need to know at a high level, what we’re going to talk about. The protocols, language, and the Internet is a network of networks. They’re not the same thing. So you hear people talk about IP and the Internet interchangeably but you have to discern between them.

[00:02:51] Hunter Newby: And at the heart of what the Internet is, there are things called internet exchanges. They’re the bridge between internet protocol networks to build the basis of the Internet. And that should be a capital I, not a little i because it’s the big Internet. This is just a very, you know, I don’t want to get technical, trying to keep it a high-level diagram of how protocols build the bases of the Internet.

[00:03:15] Hunter Newby: Which ones do? It’s not all of them. It’s not exhaustive, but it’s many. All the way out to the different modes of access. We’re going to talk about the difference between fiber and wireless. And wireless is, again, a pretty broad subject, but we will touch on some things that are wireless.

[00:03:41] Hunter Newby: But this is really important to know because I focus today, my efforts on building internet exchange points, which is effectively a euphemism for real estate. The point is actually a building within which the equipment resides. And that building is not owned by a carrier or network service provider. It is neutral. I’ve started many companies and been a partner in many companies, and we’ve acquired what’s known as carrier hotels across the United States.

[00:04:09] Hunter Newby: Starting back in 2004, it’s the first acquisition that I did of a building in Atlanta, 56 Marietta Street. Within that, there’s a room, it’s called a “meet-me room.” It’s a term that was developed over time in the industry. I was one of the people that created that. Many of the terms that exist in the industry, the room within the building where all the networks meet is called the “meet-me room.”

[00:04:30] Hunter Newby: That’s what people actually call it. That, and it’s under the much broader umbrella of data. I won’t focus any of my time when talking about those, but they’re different real estate elements, let’s call it. And within these meet-me rooms today, there are what’s called “internet exchanges.” And in internet exchange is an actual piece of equipment.

[00:04:50] Hunter Newby: It’s what’s referred to as a “layer two” on the OSI model. Ethernet switch, probably heard of the term “ethernet” before, facilitates VLANs, or virtual local area network connections, between these IP networks. Okay again, not trying to be too technical, but I focus on the real estate aspects of building those facilities to house internet exchanges.

[00:05:12] Hunter Newby: Just real quick communication timeline history. Todd asked me to put this in, I want to point out starting with just basically people talking, two people talking, and then you go through, you know, petroglyphs and cuneiform text and everything throughout. All the way up until present day in the iPhone.

[00:05:33] Hunter Newby: So we’re talking about several thousand years of communications. And this is really to represent that there’s been different modes and methods over many, many years, centuries, millennia. And this is about where we’re going. So how internet exchanges play a role in the Internet today and where we need to.

[00:05:55] Hunter Newby: With more of them, how we get there, how long it takes, what’s it going to cost. Okay. So along the lines of where are we going. There is a resource in the world, it’s a publicly accessible database called PeeringDB. “Peering” is a term that’s used to define what two IP networks do when they agree to interconnect with each other and exchange IP traffic.

[00:06:21] Hunter Newby: There’s a few forms commercially speaking of peering, there’s “free peering” where they exchange the traffic, no cost. There’s “paid peering,” and then there’s something called “transit,” which is basically buying internet access for the full internet routing table. These peering points are our euphemisms for internet exchanges and this PeeringDB database is something that people that are, you know, in the industry pretty hardcore, use it to find where internet exchanges are and then how to get connected to them.

[00:06:53] Hunter Newby: I had my developers build an API into Peering to extract the data of where these exchanges are to map that against. A series of articles I wrote almost 20 years ago about where the meet-me rooms in the United States or North America were. And I wanted to revisit that and see where internet exchanges were in relation to those original meet-me rooms that I profiled 20 years ago, roundabout.

[00:07:22] Hunter Newby: And then I took the inverse of that information as you can see here in terms of the numbers on the states. To determine where internet exchanges were not. So the map of the U.S. here and I’ve actually just updated this this morning and I’m going to pop off onto my website to show you this in real time.

[00:07:44] Hunter Newby: This reflects how many internet exchanges are in each state, and which states do not have an internet exchange at all. So most people don’t know how the internet actually works. The internet is most efficiently and effectively routed through these exchange points. Many states lack an internet exchange entirely, and that means that every bit of traffic bound for the Internet has to leave their state to go to another state, to come back to them.

[00:08:07] Hunter Newby: That creates time and cost problems. So latency in terms of the performance of the applications and cost, because there’s usually multiple hops to get there, and you’re always paying someone for that, which is why it’s called “transit.” So where are we going?

[00:08:28] Hunter Newby: What I’m focusing on now is building internet exchanges in the places that they’re not, which means I need to get land, I need to build buildings. These are modular buildings, typically the time, the ones that I design and build a couple thousand square feet. They’re typically N+1 power UPS generators, that sort of thing.

[00:08:47] Hunter Newby: It’s going to reduce latency and costs, which saves time and money. A big driver for this is the need from both sides. I work with universities and cities predominantly within these states, but they know that they don’t have good access to the Internet, and they’ve lived with this problem for a long time, a couple decades.

[00:09:07] Hunter Newby: And this is the first time that they’ve ever had anyone explain to them why they have that problem. And it’s represented here in this map. And I can prove it and I can fix it. And I’m working with a nonprofit called Connected Nation. They are a 501c and they are the largest nonprofit in America, focused on rural broadband.

[00:09:25] Hunter Newby: And we formed a JV to build these together in these places. One of the big drivers besides bringing content closer to the eyeballs and people is cloud access. So also working with AWS and a group called Outpost. And the other major cloud providers have their own, but I’m working with Outpost to help them get closer to these places that lack direct access not only to the Internet, but to the cloud.

[00:09:50] Hunter Newby: And I’m just a landlord. I’m just a simple landlord guy that likes to charge rent. I understand how all this stuff works, but I don’t do it. I’m a landlord to the networks that do. And then of course, all this enables IoT, which is another thing Todd asked me to touch on.

[00:10:11] Hunter Newby: Not enough time to really get into all of it, but just imagine that all the people and the machines and the devices and everything that connects to the Internet, the farther away it is from the core of the Internet, which would be many of these states that have many internet exchange, it performs better when you’re closer to the core and it does not perform as well when you’re further away.

[00:10:33] Hunter Newby: It’s pretty simple. Yeah okay, so there’s all that. And like I said, I’m going to go over and show you some real-time data and I can drill down into some of this stuff, particularly if anybody has any questions on it. This is my forte, this is what I focus on. But again, in keeping with where we are going, this is an image that depicts Starlink.

[00:10:58] Hunter Newby: Wow. It’s a big conversation. Starlink is very important. It’s a military operation that has commercial uses. It’s born out of SpaceX, which is related to Space Force. And what can I say? It’s super important. There’s certain applications that are going to run over Starlink that are part of a later part of the discussion that we’re going to have on the supply chain.

[00:11:26] Hunter Newby: So I’m not going to get too much into it now, but it’s very real, it’s very relevant. But the latency aspects and the capacity and throughput aspects of satellite in general, I don’t care which band it is you know or which provider it is at the moment, can not compete with or be better than the performance that wavelengths in fiber can provide.

[00:11:50] Hunter Newby: And for the moment, that means that terrestrial facilities that are hubs from interconnection, which is what I’m involved in, are still very much in demand and relevant and needed, and we need lots of them. Just to speak to that for a moment on one of the applications that I was discussing with Todd, well, there’s connected car and then there’s autonomous driving vehicles and autonomous driving vehicles are their own category and I don’t speak to that. I’m certainly not an expert in it, but I understand that requirements, somewhat latency sensitive requirements, connected car is a different thing.

[00:12:32] Hunter Newby: And I am familiar with connected car. Because of my relationships to some of the internet exchanges, particularly the largest one in the world, DE-CIX based out of Frankfurt, Germany. And I am privy to what some of the car companies want aspirationally in terms of connected car and just to understand what connected car is and what it does, the car companies want to collect data, not just from the car, but from the people, the people that get in the cars.

[00:12:55] Hunter Newby: So people on devices. So people get in the cars, they have their phones and their tablets and whatnot, and as soon as they sync to the wifi, the bluetooth in the car, the car takes every keystroke that was ever made on that device.

[00:13:15] Hunter Newby: And it’s called a phone scrape. Picks up all that data and it stores all that data and slices the data up and they monetize that data. The car companies want to get that data as fast as they possibly can because it’s valuable when it’s fresh, kind of like bread, and it’s more valuable when it’s fresh, less when it gets stale, data gets stale.

[00:13:34] Hunter Newby: So I read an RFP from one of the big U.S. car manufacturers. This is a few years ago now, just before the whole Covid lockdown situation. So I don’t know how far they got into it, but what was particularly relevant and salient to me was the latency target that this car company wanted and they wanted to collect the data and process it from every car on the road that they manufactured.

[00:14:03] Hunter Newby: From every device that’s in every one of those cars in sub one millisecond across the country, sub one millisecond equates to 50 miles or less. And based on this you need exchange points in a lot of places to pull data from the mobile operators and process that data. So you need, you need switches, you need routers, you need servers in a lot of places in order to get to sub one millisecond.

[00:14:32] Hunter Newby: And satellite won’t be able to get to sub one millisecond. It’s at least a couple hundred milliseconds up and down. So that’s why I wanted to touch on that. But the sub one millisecond from a cell tower radio to switch to a router to a server to process that data. And then effectively whatever monetizes it, let’s call it, would require a great deal more exchange points than what we have today.

[00:14:58] Hunter Newby: I mapped out sub one millisecond on a 50 mile radius basis, and effectively in a neutral setting with multiple cloud providers and multiple transport providers and the MNOs all working together and agreeing this would happen, you would need 22 thousand facilities across the U.S. – not big, but effective, and we’re nowhere near that.

[00:15:19] Hunter Newby: So it’s one of the touches on that. That’s not exactly what I’m doing this for, but it’s part of it and a lot of these applications, they may work in some places where there’s good coverage and they won’t work in other places at all because of the latency, again, distance equals time and sub one millisecond is unrealistic.

[00:15:41] Hunter Newby: And you also need the mobile operators to play ball with that and as far as I know they haven’t decided to do that yet. At least not in the way the car companies wanted. So it’s a lack of infrastructure, broadly speaking, in a neutral sense, and it’s going to require a lot of capital to build, which is a part, a big, big need and that’s part of the supply chain conversation.

[00:16:00] Hunter Newby: Okay, so back to the Starlink thing. Again, super important. Latencies is an issue; throughput is an issue. It has its own applications. It’s great commercially speaking for areas that don’t have any connectivity at all. But for, you know, like very high capacity, very low latency requirements.

[00:16:24] Hunter Newby: I don’t think that it’s going to be there anytime soon. And then finally, where are we going? So back to the original timeline slide where I had two people talking. Where we’re going is telepathy. I tell people that, I’ve been telling people that for 25 years, the biggest threat to what I do is what I refer to as “internet telepathy” and people sort of laugh.

[00:16:44] Hunter Newby: I said, the day that two people can communicate with their minds, we probably don’t need all this fiber or as much of it and I said that almost in jest, but I was serious. And now Elon Musk, you know, is rolling out Neuralinks and he said at least initially it applies for people that have, you know, physical impairments that they can’t control movements and such.

[00:17:11] Hunter Newby: But he’s certainly leaning in, let’s just say, and hinting towards what the future of communications will look like. And this is in that future. How soon? I’m not sure. But it’s in the future, so it’s worth a slide. Okay, what people need to think about: change is the only constant.

[00:17:34] Hunter Newby: Okay, the need to communicate never changes. We are going to see technological advances, I think in the next 10, 15 years that weren’t even comprehendible. You couldn’t understand. What’s about to happen? No one, you know, would’ve even imagined. I’m also invested in blockchain. I like blockchain a lot.

[00:18:00] Hunter Newby: It’s synonymous with internet protocol to me. There’s certain applications above it, which you would sort of say it’s like an app or a website, like an NFT, for example. And there’s a whole lot of innovation coming out of that space as well. But at the root of it all today, we need more physical infrastructure to make it all work.

[00:18:21] Hunter Newby: Okay, and I have a Q&A slide. How are we doing on time? Doing good? Yeah, so Todd, if you want, I could toggle over to the site and give people a little deeper dive on the exchange point thing. We could, why don’t we do that? Okay, fine. Let’s do that. So, all right, this is my site, Newby Ventures. We could send links around to everyone if you want after this is over, this is my research page specifically to the internet exchanges by U.S. state. This is updated as of November 8. The map was updated. Here we can scroll through all the states and see.

[00:19:04] Todd R. Zabelle: Hunter, I don’t know if you’re showing your site, you might only be showing the slides on the share screen maybe.

[00:19:14] Todd R. Zabelle: Hold on. There you go. Yes, sir. Thank you for that.

[00:19:21] Hunter Newby: Can you see it now? Yes. Thank you. Okay. I’ll repeat myself. This is my site. It represents the different deals that I’m in. This is the research page, which is the continuation of everything that I’ve done. I guess where my journalist had is the mapping, which is more recent, updated the map itself.

[00:19:46] Hunter Newby: Internet exchanges by states. You could see, you could scroll through here. This is actual live data. This was pulled yesterday. Yeah, so I use this to know where to go. This is my compass, so to speak. And then this is the series. These are the – this is the exact order that I did the original series.

[00:20:08] Hunter Newby: New York, Los Angeles, Atlanta, just published Atlanta today, but we’ll go back to New York. I found some bugs with PeeringDB itself that I had to get them to work on, to fix. So my developers and them worked together over the past several months to do that because nobody ever tried to do this before.

[00:20:28] Hunter Newby: So some of the things that I was asking for were alien. There’s a brief intro here to the original. The then part of it, which is a recap of what these cities were like back in 2003 and 2005 when I covered them. And then there’s the updated version now where I focus on internet exchanges, which is a relatively new development in the network infrastructure landscape in the world, not just in the U.S., and then I focused on just the exchanges that are in New York. I point out that it’s a little ironic that New York encompasses New Jersey, but people still refer to it as New York. And I said, it’s not that alien. If you’re familiar with the New York Giants and the New York Jets, they both play in New Jersey.

[00:21:17] Hunter Newby: So there’s a lot of New York internet exchanges on the other side of the river. And then here we go. This is the fun part. So in general, carrier hotels across the world are known by their address 60 Hudson’s, one of the most famous out there in L.A. You got One Wilshire up in Seattle. You got the Weston Building, which is known by its name, not its address.

[00:21:42] Hunter Newby: This lists the address. The number of exchanges and then the individual facilities within that building. And then it shows you the internet exchange and the number of ASNs that are on that exchange. And ASN is an autonomous system number, which is an address for an IP network, and I’ll get into that in a second.

[00:22:03] Hunter Newby: DE-CIX is based out of Frankfurt, Germany. Very good friends with them. We do a lot of things together. They were a tenant of mine and a couple of my facilities here in New York that I’ve now exited, but they’re still there. Anyhow, shows you all the exchanges, all the AS, and then what actual addresses they’re in.

[00:22:23] Hunter Newby: I used to own that building there, 325 Hudson. This building, 60 Hudson Street, is where myself and partners started Telx, which was the first neutral interconnection facility business at 60 Hudson Street. That’s over 20 years ago. The reason why I wrote these articles is because I wanted to go back to see if the largest internet exchanges in these cities today were the meet-me rooms that I featured 18 years ago, and lo and behold, they certainly are, which wasn’t a shock to me.

[00:22:51] Hunter Newby: I actually knew that that’s what was going to happen. It’s like network gravity, so critical mass begets critical mass. And all of those facilities have done nothing but continue to grow over the years. And more and more networks come and connect in those rooms, in those buildings, on those floors, and now on these internet exchanges.

[00:23:16] Hunter Newby: And you could see how significant, I mean, it starts to get thin pretty quick and a lot of that’s in New Jersey. But there are several sites there that are very dense now, the AS numbers. Okay, so we’re going to go to the archive. I’m working on the live data update for sorting right now, but this shows you the AS number of the IP network.

[00:23:40] Hunter Newby: So Hurricane Electric, for people who have never heard of it, if you’re outside of the industry, you wouldn’t know. But Hurricane Electric is an ISP and they also sell transport ethernet transport. And they have some data centers. They have one in Fremont, California. But they’re the largest IPv6 network in the world.

[00:24:01] Hunter Newby: And then of course you have, you know, brand names that you’d know – Yahoo, Cloudflare, Facebook, Google, Microsoft – and you could see how many internet exchanges they’re connected to. That AS is connected to this many IXs in this city, in these locations. Why is that important? Because when you are building your own network, your own IP network, you need to get connected to other IP networks.

[00:24:24] Hunter Newby: And if you’re not just going to buy upstream transit from, you know, AT&T or someone like that, you need to know this information. You need to know the biggest networks in the world, where they are in that city that you need to connect to. And then you could literally click through this and go to the facility page for the network.

[00:24:48] Hunter Newby: Let’s see, I’m just going to randomly do this right now. Digital Realty. There you go. My company Telx was acquired by them. So this is that facility at 60 Hudson Street. And these are the AS numbers that are there physically in that site. And these are the internet exchanges that are within that facility. Digital Realty is a data center.

[00:25:12] Hunter Newby: They’re publicly traded. You probably have heard of them. If you haven’t, look them up, they’re public. You can read all about it. This is interesting, too. The Big Apple Peering Exchange is an exchange that I actually started over 20 years ago with a friend of mine. We’re not really paying much attention to it, as you could tell.

[00:25:30] Hunter Newby: It’s still there. I should say he isn’t, and DE-CIX New York, obviously the largest there with 244. Anyhow this is the world that I focus on. These are the things that I do. I am presently working with Connected Nation, as I said, to build internet exchange points in many of the states here that have zeros.

[00:25:54] Hunter Newby: Myself and Connected Nation actually helped to draft the IX bill, which is the internet exchange bill. That was passed by the House and the Senate, and it made its way into the Middle Mile Grant, which the deadline for that was September 30. So we applied for five internet exchange points to the grant that we helped write.

[00:26:19] Hunter Newby: And we worked with four universities in one city, the University of Kentucky, Mississippi State, Oklahoma State, and Wichita State University, as well as the city of Albuquerque. We submitted that grant. They’re each donating roughly two acres of land to us. The universities will do that on their research campuses.

[00:26:41] Hunter Newby: And then the city of Albuquerque on their airport, they decommissioned its runway. And we’re going to build these modular buildings and we’re going to bring in DE-CIX through a JV relationship I have with them to those facilities, to localize content and then bring the cloud into those places, which you can see there.

[00:27:04] Hunter Newby: Those states need some help. And they’re aware of it . So we’re happy to be doing that. And we have a total of 124 cities on our list that we have profiled using many data points, that lack an internet exchange and an internet exchange point. And then through Connected Nation, they know how much every school district in the United States pays per megabit for transit.

[00:27:31] Hunter Newby: So that’s kind of like a treasure map, and we use that to triangulate all this. And then we approach, you know, flagship institutions and the local governments to work with them to help solve this problem. So with that, I think I’ll stop. You know, pass it back to you, Todd or Kristen, and see if you guys have any questions or anything else you want me to tell?

[00:27:56] Todd R. Zabelle: Yeah, we’ve got a couple minutes left and a couple questions that have come in. First one is how – maybe I should start the video here. How, Hunter, will this impact our business and our business models? Is there something here that we should be looking at or considering?

[00:28:15] Hunter Newby: Any company that uses the Internet that has operations of any type in any of these states. First and foremost, if you’re using the Internet or internet protocol over your own private networks, you should have a presence in one or more of these existing internet exchanges without question. And if you don’t know what an ASN is, I’ve got a couple of links that I could share with you that would, it’s a tutorial it’ll make sense.

[00:28:43] Hunter Newby: That helps you reduce cost and helps you reduce latency, which improves performance on your network, you know, in general. And then if you’re operating in any of the states that don’t have an internet exchange, you know, let’s have a conversation because I’d be really happy to work with you to help improve the network performance of those operations in those states as I go along with Connected Nation to resolve this issue of eliminating all the places in the United States that don’t have the Internet generally.

[00:29:12] Todd R. Zabelle: Yeah, I would think that some of our energy friends are probably looking around a couple states where they have operations and are going to be doing more and more with IoT linked to their assets and probably concerned that some of those states don’t have anything at all or only have one.

[00:29:31] Todd R. Zabelle: Right. Which is very interesting. Okay, another question that came in is, yeah, how should we be thinking about things differently, if at all? Is there something here that’s going on? You mentioned Starlink, you talked, you mentioned IoT. Are there things that people should be thinking about as this all develops over time?

[00:29:50] Hunter Newby: Well, I, you know, the lack of internet infrastructure is a problem that’s existed for a long time and people call that the rural broadband problem, but it’s not really rural, it’s an American problem. There are third world nations everywhere within the United States. But that’s a system structure that is broken almost intentionally.

[00:30:10] Hunter Newby: And there’s a bigger thing that everyone should be thinking about that’s going on. That we’ll talk about later in the supply chain discussion, but as it pertains specifically to networks and the Internet, and using the Internet to do, you know, your business, whatever it is yeah, this is something that you should all be thinking about and be, you know, asking questions about certainly at a state level, but being privy to this information helps you make better decisions about how to build and run your networks, which pretty much every business of size today relies on networks.

[00:30:47] Hunter Newby: I mean, we’re doing this whole symposium over Zoom, so if we didn’t have good networks, this wouldn’t work. You know that at a macro level, I think that’s just knowledge and you should, it’s actionable, the capital aspect to it, which is what we’re going to talk about later. It’s supply chain, the supply of capital.

[00:31:06] Hunter Newby: What is that? What is currency? What is money? That’s super important. It’s almost the biggest issue. It’s right below the biggest issue, and that impacts this because, as great as the data center market generally has been in terms of network infrastructure in the past few years. It’s been fueled by, you know, just endless printing of the Federal Reserve, Fiat very cheap debt, which has all changed just in the past few months.

[00:31:37] Hunter Newby: We have interest rate hikes, we have supply chain issues that are in fact, in costs and time, and it’s going to become ever more challenging to fix this problem right here with these states that have zero. It was hard enough to attract private equity to come build or acquire a site that already existed for strategic reasons or whatever.

[00:32:00] Hunter Newby: You know, they want in place triple credit, tenant customers, cash flows, EBITDA. Trying to get them to invest in Greenfield in places where there’s nothing is very challenging. I know; I’ve been doing this for over 20 years. Now it’s going to get harder because the money problem, you know, is broken and getting worse when we’re on the other side of that, hopefully very soon.

[00:32:22] Hunter Newby: But I don’t know how long, I don’t think that this will be as much of an issue, but it’s the “what do you do about it right now?” And how is it going to impact your business? Right now, both on the internet network infrastructure and then cost to capital, access to capital. I think that’s everybody. You know, valuations, I think about that every day.

[00:32:41] Hunter Newby: You know, it’s what drives us. It’s what we’re building equity value for the exit, right? One day. And what’s that going to look like? So those are the things that are on my mind as I invest in this and build this out.

[00:32:57] Todd R. Zabelle: We gotta wrap this one up, but Hunter’s going to be back later.

[00:32:59] Todd R. Zabelle: He’s got a passion. Some elements, the supply chain that we’re gonna talk about. But I want to thank you, Hunter, and look forward to you coming back on after, not this next one, but the following one. Okay. Or we’re going to talk about some very interesting things around the supply chain. Alright thank you again, Hunter.

[00:33:16] Thank you.